ㄹ/을 vs 는 verb ending

[shiftshizzy3310]

Hi all, first post here so sorry for maybe a newbie question, but...
Could someone explain the difference between using the ㄹ and 는 verb endings to modify a noun?

For example, "갈 때", and "가는 때"
both can mean "the time I go" right?

similarly, "해야할 일" and "해야하는 일"
could both mean "work I must do"
but what's the difference?

If there's a grammar section posting on this, could someone direct me? I couldn't find one. Thanks 여러분.

[trutherous]

For example, "갈 때", and "가는 때"
both can mean "the time I go" right?

similarly, "해야할 일" and "해야하는 일"
could both mean "work I must do"
but what's the difference?

Greetings shiftshizzy3310, nice to see you here at KoreanClass101.

First let me say that grammar is not my forte, but I will start with this and you will likely get much better explanations. I think I understand your question regarding using these particles to indicate tense but I am not sure your examples for 는 are entirely correct -- I don't think I have ever heard anyone use the expression "가는 때" so I will use other examples:

갈 길 -the road to be traveled, the road I/you will travel -here the addition of ㄹ to "가" (go) indicates future tense (will go)

가는 길 -the road that is being traveled, the road I/you are traveling on (also the road that leads to someplace) - addition of 는 to 가 indicates a present tense (going) or in the case of a road 'leading' somewhere

할 일 -the work that has to be done, the work that will be done - here 하(do)+ㄹ = future tense of "do"
하는 일 -the work that is being done, the work I am doing (also 'the work I do/he does' - not necessarily at this exact moment) - once again the addition of 는 brings this to a present tense

However, it's not quite so simple as this, as nothing with grammar ever is, and there are many other nuances created through using ㄹ/ㄴ tense particles with other verb patterns.

Anyway, keep up the great work!

George - fellow student

[timandyou]

Hello shiftshizzy,
It's your first time to post here!!! Great! Wonderful! Excellent!
Please feel free to post any! 'ㄹ and 는 verb ending' is not a newbie question! You are advance! Our fellow student named George replied for your question.
"Thanks George~~!"
Please do not hesitate to leave any question.
Thanks,
cheers,


Tim

[shiftshizzy3310]

Hey George, thanks for the explanation, but you've made me think of something else now.
So as you said, the ㄹ ending indicates some meaning of the future tense, but what about the past tense example of 갔을 길?

In this case, what's the difference between 갔을 길 and 갔던 길?

[trutherous]

In this case, what's the difference between 갔을 길 and 갔던 길?

In the case of a road (길) I don't think "갔을 길" is used as a valid expression, it would be either 가던 길 (the road I traveled) or 갔던 길 (the road I used to travel) when using the retrospective marker "던"

However, there is 갈 때 (when you go), and 갔을 때 (when you go/went), and even 갔었을 때 (when you went back then) ---haha---- go figure that one out, or as my wife says, in Korean there is "past" and "more past" tense

Tense markers and verb pattern constructs have to be applied appropriately.
Example:
제가 하겠습니다. - I will do it.
제가 할 거예요. - I will do it.
Both mean the same thing, but you don't mix certain things, you wouldn't say 할겠습니다 or 하 거예요..

[manyakumi]

No offence, George.
Really....

In this case, what's the difference between 갔을 길 and 갔던 길?

갔을 길 : the path that would have been through (never been actually)

갔던 길 : the path that have been through



BTW,
I'm not sure if my english is correct.

[trutherous]

갔을 길 : the path that would have been through (never been actually)

Many many many akumi! Hi again. BTW -- your English was perfect!

Yeah that makes sense (i.e.갔을 길 : the path that would have been but never actually was) that is the way I would interpret it, but since 1983 when I first started living with Koreans until today I have never ever heard anyone use that expression - neither have I read it except for here in this forum.

Also the poster, shiftshizzy, was asking about clarification of past tense usage and seemed to be lumping the two expressions together as having similar meaning with retrospective modifier 던, so I thought his impression was that simply adding 어,여,았 e.g. "+ㅆ" (갔) put anything into the past tense.

In the case of 갔을 길 we also have this oddity of 'what would have been (at some future time) but wasn't) --anyway, not an easy thing to find in the online dictionaries so before I posted those remarks I went to the other bedroom and woke up the 55-yr old living Korean dictionary and asked her about it --according also to her the expression is not used. Of course this would not be the first time she was too sleepy to understand my question.

Anyway -- always great input from you Manyakumi -- you are my definitive grammar source!

나

[timandyou]

Thank you both George and Manyakumi~!

Manyakumi, George said you are his "definitive grammar source! "
I do envy you!

And George, I am at you!
I thought I am your "definitive grammar source! "
But actually I am not!


On the other hand, it's great to see the teamwork two of you perform!
I am more than "happy"! (but still I am at you, George!)

Your explanation (both of you) is excellent!
In order to explain this grammar point, it's better to put them into example sentences.

1. 갔을 길 - 이 길은 내가 갔을 길이야. 저것은 내가 갔을 길이야.
As Manyakumi just mentioned, "the path that would have been through (never been actually)" 아마도 이 길은 내가 갔을 길이야! "Perhaps, this path would have been my path!" (never been actually but he thinks he would)

2. 갔던 길 - 이 길은 내가 갔던 길이야. 저것은 내가 갔던 길이야.
As manyakumi mentioned, "the path that have been through"
이 골목은 내가 어렸을 때 갔던 길이야! "I used to go by this alley when I was young!"

Now I do agree with George!
Manyakumi is my "definitive grammar source" as well!

Thanks for your thoughtful explanation!
I really do appreciate both of you, George and Manyakumi!
best,

Tim

[manyakumi]

Thanks for the compliment(as I believe), guys. lol
And yes, George.
I also agree to your opinion that it isn't used very often.
However, it is not grammatically wrong expression at least and I just wanted to let you all know.
My intention was not to break into the discussion and to make you get confused at all, you know.

Don't get my tips so serious, guys.
Just memorise for someday in the future.
I'll be back when I found some nitches here.
XD


Cheers,
SEAN.

[manyakumi]

I'm back again to show you the case above and I think you might be familiar more than 갔을 길.

The structure is...

Verb stem + ㅆ을 + Noun


And the example that might be friendly would be...

갔을 터

We always use this pattern as like..

미리 알려줬으면 내가 갔을텐데.
I would have gone if you had noticed me.



I'm sorry that I led you all here to 삼천포. lol

[timandyou]

You are looked and seemed to have so much fun explaining!

That's great!!!
thanks a lot!

by the way, "nothing goes 삼천포 in our forum!"

cheers,

Tim

[trutherous]

"갔을 텐데"와 "갔을 때"라는 용어를 아는데 "갔을 길" 있는 문장을 읽어 싶네요. 그건 정말 시와 같을 거예요.

[manyakumi]

"갔을 텐데"와 "갔을 때"라는 용어를 아는데 "갔을 길" 있는 문장을 읽어 싶네요. 그건 정말 시와 같을 거예요.

당신이 뭐라 했건 어차피 그 사람이 갔을 길이예요.
너무 자책하지 마세요.

[trutherous]

nice

[timandyou]

"Nice!"