A question on particles...

[Alexis]

These forums don't seem too active, but I thought I'd ask my question here anyways.

I've been doing the beginner lessons (scuse the newbie-ness), and I was writing yesterday, when I got kinda stuck as to what particles should be used. I wanted to say: "my husband has an older sister. Her name is Nicole. Nicole has a husband and a son. Her husband's name is Matthew, and her son's name is Lachlan." I'm confused, because I thought 는/은 were meant to be used for the TOPIC. But in my little passage, who exactly is the topic? My husband (Robert) or Nicole??

I wrote (sorry for the bad spelling, also!): 누나는 니코르씨입니다. 니코르씨는 남편이 있습니다... 니코르씨는 아둘이 있습니다... 아둘은 러크란입니다. I kinda don't think that's right, because I'm talking about ROBERT'S sister. So shouldn't ROBERT be the topic, and not Nicole. And if THAT's the case, then do I use 이/가 for both Nicole and Lachlan?

Sorry if that makes no sense... LOL.

Also, just a random, small question: how would I spell "Robert"? I've tried many different ways including: 로버르트, 로버트 and 로벗, but I kinda don't think any of them are right. >_< I kinda suck when it comes to spelling western words/names. LOL.

Thanks to anyone who can help!

[javiskefka]

"my husband has an older sister. Her name is Nicole. Nicole has a husband and a son. Her husband's name is Matthew, and her son's name is Lachlan."

누나는 니코르씨입니다. 니코르씨는 남편이 있습니다... 니코르씨는 아둘이 있습니다... 아둘은 러크란입니다.

I would write your sentence like this:
제 남편은 누나가 있습니다. 누나 이름은 니콜입니다. 니콜은 남편하고 아들이 있습니다. 남편 이름은 매튜이고 아들은 라크란입니다.

-Scratch the -씨s. You wouldn't use them when you're just identifying what somebody's name is, and you wouldn't use them when you're talking about your family members.

Also, just a random, small question: how would I spell "Robert"? I've tried many different ways including: 로버르트, 로버트 and 로벗, but I kinda don't think any of them are right. >_< I kinda suck when it comes to spelling western words/names. LOL.

Thanks to anyone who can help!

I'd use 로버트.

[manyakumi]

javiskefka's answer was confirmed by a native Korean speaker.
It's perfect.

I kinda don't think that's right, because I'm talking about ROBERT'S sister. So shouldn't ROBERT be the topic, and not Nicole. And if THAT's the case, then do I use 이/가 for both Nicole and Lachlan?

I guess you are confusing about this.
"The topic" we are talking about in the grammar is not about the topic of a conversation.
Every sentences have their own topics.


my husband has an older sister.
Topic : my husband

Her name is Nicole.
Topic : Her name

Nicole has a husband and a son.
Topic : Nicole

Her husband's name is Matthew, and her son's name is Lachlan.
Topic : Her husband's name, her son's name


And you can use all of 은/는,이/가 for the topics.
The nuance of the topics would be slightly different when to use 은/는 or 이/가 however.

[Alexis]

What does 제 mean?

I didn't reply to javiskefka's response, as I'm only doing the beginner lessons and probably haven't learnt enough to say stuff the way they did.

manyakumi: if you can use 은/는 and 이/가 for the topic, then what's the difference between the two? I thought 이/가 was used for the subject?

[manyakumi]

What does 제 mean?

제 means "my".
It's a contracted form of 저의.

저 : the humble form of 나 (I)
의 : possessive marking particle

manyakumi: if you can use 은/는 and 이/가 for the topic, then what's the difference between the two? I thought 이/가 was used for the subject?

You should better check this out.
http://www.koreanclass101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1408

I've just read about the difference between the topic and the subject in English grammar from Wikipedia.
And I realized that there would be no wonder you had such a confusion.
Actually Korean grammar doesn't distinguish the topic and the subject.
There is only 주어 and it's more close to the subject in English grammar.
So Koreans are not used to the concept of the topic.

[Alexis]

I've just read about the difference between the topic and the subject in English grammar from Wikipedia.
And I realized that there would be no wonder you had such a confusion.
Actually Korean grammar doesn't distinguish the topic and the subject.
There is only 주어 and it's more close to the subject in English grammar.
So Koreans are not used to the concept of the topic.

Ahh OK, that makes more sense. I'm still kinda confused, though. I mean, what's the point, then, in having 은/는 AND 이/가? Why not just have one?

Anywho, thanks heaps, manyakumi. You've been helpful! I'll go read that newbie thread now!!

[holdfast]

there are a lot of different rules and nuances with this, and i can't explain it all, but i can tell you what i know.

korean is a very indirect language, and korean people generally try to be as polite and indirect as possible. 이/가 is much more direct than 은/는 and is hardly ever used when talking about yourself (usually people use 는 with 저/나 and not 가). 은/는 is like saying "as for.." it is also used to imply contrast (not necessarily just for a topic). an example:

a. 사과 있어요? do you have an apple?
b. 아니요 사과는 없어요 no, i don't have an apple (but i might have something else..)

a. 뭐해? what are you doing?
b. 지금은 공부 하고 있어.. right now i'm studying (but i was just doing something else, or i am going to do something else soon)

hmmm.. i am really not qualified to explain this well. in the first example the use of 는 kind of isolates 사과 as the thing he doesn't have - it implies that he might have something else, or some other situation like that. in the second example, using 은 with 지금 isolates "right now" and implies that the speaker is studying right now, but wasn't studying a few minutes ago, or is almost finished studying.

i know i am not doing a very good job of explaining this. i hope someone else can help! ^^

[javiskefka]

What does 제 mean?

I didn't reply to javiskefka's response, as I'm only doing the beginner lessons and probably haven't learnt enough to say stuff the way they did.

manyakumi: if you can use 은/는 and 이/가 for the topic, then what's the difference between the two? I thought 이/가 was used for the subject?

Right, there are many ways to say the same thing in Korean. I just used phrasing and word choice the most closely matched the original English sentences in my mind. Also, since you were asking about 이/가 and 은/는 I wanted to give examples of sentences with multiple and separate subjects and topics.

I'll try to break it down to make it more newbie-friendly

My husband has an older sister.
제 남편은 누나가 있습니다.

My husband-TOPIC (older sister)-SUBJECT exists.
To use Emily's terminology: As for my husband an older sister exists.

Her name is Nicole.
누나 이름은 니콜입니다.

Older sister's name-TOPIC is Nicole.

Nicole has a husband and a son.
니콜은 남편하고 아들이 있습니다.

Nicole-TOPIC (husband AND son)-SUBJECT exist.

Her husband's name is Matthew, and her son's name is Lachlan."
남편 이름은 매튜이고 아들은 라크란입니다.

(Husband's name-TOPIC is Matthew) AND son-TOPIC is Lachlan

(For the last sentence, I omitted a couple things originally to make it flow more naturally. I'll add them back in)
남편의 이름은 매튜이고 아들의 이름은 라크란입니다.

(Husband-POSSESSIVE name-TOPIC is Matthew) AND son-POSSESSIVE name-TOPIC is Lachlan

[Alexis]

Thanks heaps, Holdfast and Javiskefka! That's more helpful! Sorry 'bout my newbie-ness! I'm hoping to get past it soon enough!!

BTW does anyone have any tips for learning vocab? There's so much to learn that I haven't really got a good way of learning vocab very successfully!

Also: because I'm kind of a newbie, I'm gradually/slowly making my way through the first beginner series. At the same time, however, I've listened to quite a few of the idioms/phrases series, the audio blog and a couple of the other series on KC101. However, I don't understand much (obviously!). Does anyone have any advice about learning Korean through this site? EG: Should I continue listening to these more advanced series, or should I wait to listen to/use them once I know more?

Sorry, this is off topic. Just thought I'd ask! ^_^

[owbEe]

Hi Alexis. Welcome to KC101.

Does anyone have any advice about learning Korean through this site? EG: Should I continue listening to these more advanced series, or should I wait to listen to/use them once I know more?

I'm also a newbie here and would like to share this post by Matthew. I hope this would help you.

As for me, I'm still sticking with the newbie and the beginner lessons since I don't have a wide vocabulary as of now. I do get frustrated hearing new words that I'm not really familiar with so I try to study first the basic and hopefully move on to more complicated ones.

There are also times that I'd go back to the lessons that I've already studied to refresh my memory and also to challenge myself and see if the lessons have stayed in my mind.

It really depends on how you study things. I do hope I've helped you with my answer.

[Alexis]

Thanks, owbEe. I've kinda skipped the newbie lessons myself, as I already knew most of what's in them, but I'll probably go back to them kinda briefly once I've finished the first beginner series. Just to check that there's nothing vital I've missed before I move onto the next series.

[matthew254]

I just gotta say this: nice job javiskefka!!!

[yhenry]

My husband has an older sister.
제 남편은 누나가 있습니다.

My husband-TOPIC (older sister)-SUBJECT exists.
To use Emily's terminology: As for my husband an older sister exists.

I have a question for you in regard to Korean grammar.
Sounding funny maybe but I don't know much about which is topic and which is subject.
What I don't know I have to learn from you.

Is my husband topic and older sister subject according to the Korean grammar book?
I mean, 'official'?
If it is, then, I can tell other Korean learner confidently about that.
I just need to make sure that.

What is the difference between subject and the topic?
I just wonder.
Please, educate me.

[manyakumi]

My husband has an older sister.
제 남편은 누나가 있습니다.

My husband-TOPIC (older sister)-SUBJECT exists.
To use Emily's terminology: As for my husband an older sister exists.

Is my husband topic and older sister subject according to the Korean grammar book?
I mean, 'official'?
If it is, then, I can tell other Korean learner confidently about that.
I just need to make sure that.

Korean grammar book will probably analyze it as below officially.

제 남편은 : 주어(the Subject)
누나가 : 주격보어(the Subjective Complement)

I think javiskefka tried to explain it from the English grammar's point of view.

[javiskefka]

My husband has an older sister.
제 남편은 누나가 있습니다.

My husband-TOPIC (older sister)-SUBJECT exists.
To use Emily's terminology: As for my husband an older sister exists.

Is my husband topic and older sister subject according to the Korean grammar book?
I mean, 'official'?
If it is, then, I can tell other Korean learner confidently about that.
I just need to make sure that.

Korean grammar book will probably analyze it as below officially.

제 남편은 : 주어(the Subject)
누나가 : 주격보어(the Subjective Complement)

I think javiskefka tried to explain it from the English grammar's point of view.

Yes, I'm definitely not the person to explain official Korean grammar.