Addressing a Much Younger Stranger in Korean

[manyakumi]

This is just my personal perception, but, 4: I feel like some Koreans think that, 반말 is a special thing that foreigners shouldn't be allowed to use. They treat it like it is only for Koreans. I have a problem with that philosophy too. I want to learn the language, and all of its idiosyncrasies .

I'm not sure about this but I've never seen any cases like this.
It might be your own misunderstanding or from a self-accusation.
I think holdfast's opinion would be true.
If a foreigner who doesn't speak Korean fluently uses 반말,
Korean people might think that the one wasn't educated in a proper way.
They are caring about the foreigners so that they won't make mistakes.

but I totally agree to your opinion about learning from mistakes.
In that point of view, I'd like to give you an advice.
Koreans might feel uncomfortable when they would see anyone's 반말 message on a public board even if he/she wrote it just for his/her own friend.
Not everyone but sometimes..
It's not a matter of where he/she from.

[shanshanchua]

Thanks for all the insightful posts!

While I can appreciate the importance of being polite/respectful to someone who's older or in authority, I don't understand why 1 or 2 years' difference in age matters. But I get the idea (am I mistaken?) that one of the first questions asked when you get to know somebody is their age, so that you'll know the appropriate speech level to use. I mean, does it really matter if I'm 24 and you are 25?

Unless one is brought up or very well acquainted in Korean culture, I think it's quite difficult for a non-Korean to fully understand the politeness level thing. Especially for those of us who are used to a more relaxed culture. For example, if I wasn't told that it's kinda rude to use 반말 with strangers/older people, I would probably think it's just a more casual way of talking. Something like "Hi there", rather than "Good morning, how do you do", but there's nothing rude about saying "Hi there", it's just casual.

Well, in any case, I'll be sticking to 존대말!

[manyakumi]

Ya, you're right.
This is so hard to understand especially for foreigners.
Even Korean peoples think differently about this matter.

Some Koreans feel uncomfortable unless they don't use 반말 when they are making a new friend, but I prefer not to say 반말 except for someone whom I already have used 반말 with.
I'm trying to keep saying in the standard politeness level from now on even if someone becomes a friend of mine.
We don't have to be casual to be friendly with others.
This is the most different part from your culture.

[austinfd]

but I totally agree to your opinion about learning from mistakes.
In that point of view, I'd like to give you an advice.
Koreans might feel uncomfortable when they would see anyone's 반말 message on a public board even if he/she wrote it just for his/her own friend.
Not everyone but sometimes..
It's not a matter of where he/she from.

Thanks for that input. I have waverd back and forth in my posts. I can understand your point about that.

While I can appreciate the importance of being polite/respectful to someone who's older or in authority, I don't understand why 1 or 2 years' difference in age matters. But I get the idea (am I mistaken?) that one of the first questions asked when you get to know somebody is their age, so that you'll know the appropriate speech level to use. I mean, does it really matter if I'm 24 and you are 25?

I am an English teacher, and every year I have to teach a lesson to 4th graders called "How old are you?" As a part of the lesson I show them some pictures of my friends and have them guess their age. My students know I am 27 (Korean age) so they get really baffled when I show them a picture of an old college roommate. They find out that he is 22 (in the picture) and invariably a student will say:

"But Teacher, you said he is your friend!?"

I'll explain that the picture is a few years old, which they immediately understand, but it gives important insight in the cultural understanding of "friend" Westerners are accustomed to having friends, that may span several years. A freshmen and a senior in college can be "friends" if they are on the same team, etc.

But in Korean There are different terms to refer to people who are outside of your age. Since all Koreans count their age at exactly the same way, it creates very clear boundaries. In Korea, a student who says he is 10 years old is going to be in 4th grade (99% of the time). An American 10 year old, would be in 4th or 5th, and if you guess, you'd be right only 50% of the time.

Anyway, for Koreans, 1 or 2 years difference may not matter much, but go much beyond that you're getting out of the "friend" catagory. So YES, it is important!

Some of the other terms used:

At school: An older student is reffered to as 선배. A younger student is 후배.

Genearally, the younger students will address an older student as 선배, and the older student can call the younger one by his/her name. 후배 is used in 3rd person references.

[manyakumi]

Austin,
Please don't mind.
I didn't mean to judge you at all but just wanted to let you know how complicated the politeness level things are. I thought you have considered them too simple.

All of these confusings are owing to the difference of thinking about being casual.
반말 shouldn't be regarded as a "casual" form.
I'd rather call it as a "rude but friendly" way of speaking.
You must understand this kind of paradox in order to use 반말 freely.

[thomasz]

thank for your introducing, I hope I wii visit to know more.

[xflibble]

Most courses and textbook ONLY teach standard a formal politeness levels. I am disappointed in that. It is an important place to start and is a good foundation, but I also think it "cripples" you in some other ways.

I think it also presents an overly-simplified view of things as well, in that they start teaching you that a question is asked purely through intonation, which isn't really true. I think it delays the inevitable learning of particles and the agglutinative aspects of Korean. I can understand that it might scare some people off, but those people usually end up scared off anyway

Yonsei's Korean in 100 hours seems to present different speech levels reasonably early on.

In general, I've found people will tell you if they want you to speak 반말, and I notice the mixing of politeness levels seems to vary a lot from person to person. I remember Teach Yourself Korean noting that speaking in standard politeness all the time may make your speech sound a bit feminine, and that men should mix in a bit of formal speech from time to time. Any comments/observations on this?

[javiskefka]

I have heard women say that they associate formal speech with the news and the military. They were not much help in advising when to use it.

[Dan_84]

I remember Teach Yourself Korean noting that speaking in standard politeness all the time may make your speech sound a bit feminine, and that men should mix in a bit of formal speech from time to time. Any comments/observations on this?

I also used Teach Yourself Korean as my starting point, and I remember the part you're talking about.

I asked Keith about that once, and he said it sounds like a cultural/linguistic observation from about 20 years ago! I think as learners of the language, it's something we really don't need to worry about. My focus is more on just being understood!

[xflibble]

I asked Keith about that once, and he said it sounds like a cultural/linguistic observation from about 20 years ago! I think as learners of the language, it's something we really don't need to worry about. My focus is more on just being understood!

Possibly, although I noticed that my brother in law, who is in his mid to late thirties, mixes things up this way. Perhaps it's a case of linguistic changes in the younger, feminised generation Or do people tend to increase formality as they get older? I know one of the KC101 lessons hinted at this with regard to how people refer to their parents as they get older.

I agree with the point about being understood first though. That's the main challenge for most of us.

[javiskefka]

The woman that I mentioned a few posts above was still in college, so probably had just not had much need to use formal speech in the "real world" yet.