honorific infix

[Bouks]

My questions here are in reference to grammar points in Beginner S2 lessons 2 and 3.

Lesson 3 introduced the honorific infix : verb stem + -(으)시 + conjugation. So far, I understand this.

Then, if the conjugation after 시 is standard or intimate politeness, we contract 시 + 어 and we get 셔. I also understand this.

Where I start to get confused is when I see some words that have 세 in them instead of 셔. In fact, the same verb written both ways can be found in these two lessons. For example:

In the Lesson 2 dialogue, 어저씨 says the word " 괜찮으셔 ".

Then in the Lesson 3 dialogue, 직원 says " 괜찮으세요 ".

Another example:

In the Lesson 2 grammar point on honorific infix, the example is given: " 오셔요 ".

The Lesson 3 grammar point on Affirmative Imperative says that this form is the same as regular present conjugation. But they give the example, " 오세요 ".

So my question is...

I can't figure out why 세 is used. If it is a contraction, none of the rules of contractions say that 이 + something else can become 에. It isn't clearly explained in either lesson, it just appears.

Please tell me when to use 세, what it is a contraction of, and when to use 셔. And it would be great if you could change the PDFs so the point is more clear.

Thank you!

[manyakumi]

In the matter of fact,
The both 셔요 and 세요 are totally same.
세요 is more modern form so you can see this on many cases now.
You can see them saying so many 셔요 in the historical dramas.
It has little bit antique nuances I think.

but we don't use only 세 in the intimate politeness level such as 괜찮으세.

[austinfd]

From what my observations,

-시 can be used in descriptive statements, and questions, in the 3rd and 2nd person. It is also used in past and future conjugations.

but -세 is almost always used in an imperative (or suggestive) sentence, and used in the 2nd person and only present tense


사장님께서 식당에 가셨습니다 (The boss went to restaurant)
엄마 밥을 만들실 거 예요 (Mom will make some food)
한국어를 잘 하시네요! (You speak Korean so well!) ("네" is another infix implying surprise)

사주세요 (please buy that for me)
보세요 (please take a look at this)
하세요(please do this)

Again, this is just from what I see... I'll defer to a native speaker if I'm wrong about anything!

[nilfisq]

I would like to bump this old post since I am struggling with the same question.
Can someone within the KC101 team confirm the answers given by Austin and Manyakumi?
I think Bouks is right in his/her suggestion to adapt the PDF files Beginner S2 lesson 2 and 3 and the corresponding chapter in the Grammar Bank accordingly, since they cause quite a bit of confusion.

[Chris1]

I understand your confusion, but it's a lot easier than you think. As you know, 시 is added into a verb when the action doer is respected. 셔 comes from 시 + 어, but 세요 is essentially the EXACT SAME THING only used when 요 is at the end and, as Manyakumi said, it is a more modern form.

괜찮으셔요 is the same as 괜찮으세요 -- BUT there is no such thing as 괜찮으세, so when using 반말, you always will stick with 시+어 (셔).. i.e. you want to ask our little brother how grandmother is doing:

할머니께서 괜찮으셔? The 시 is added to show respect to your grandmother and you're talking in 반말 to your little brother. On the other hand, if you're asking a guy on the street that just fell in front of you, you would say "아! 괜찮으세요?" or "아! 괜찮으셔요?" -- Both are correct, but generally 괜찮으세요 is going to be the more natural of the two when it is in 존댓말 form.

-세요 can be used for questions, decarative sentences, or commands just as 셔요 can --since they're essentially the same thing.

한국말 잘 하세요? Can you speak Korean?
(그는) 한국말 잘 하세요. He speaks Korean well.
안에 들어가세요. Please go inside.

You can use 셔요 for any of the sentences above and it will still make perfect sense, but the more modern term is to use -세요--you will certainly hear both, however.

I hope that clers things up.

[nilfisq]

Thank you Chris: your answer is perfectly clear!
I tried to look this issue up in the Korean grammar for International learners but I could not find it. Therefore, this forum is brilliant: a valuable part of the KC101 classes.

[Chris1]

I'm glad it helped.

Keep in mind that the Korean Grammar for International Learners Book is mostly a translated high school grammar textbook into English. While it may be a good reference for certain types of constructions, it doesn't really explain anything in English terms or between cultures (such as the reason why 시 exists).

[nilfisq]

Chris, I agree that the Korean Grammar for International Learners follows a somewhat unconventional concept, but I do like the abundane of examples. Could you recommend another good grammar? I go back to Seoul in January, so I could look for it at Kyobo bookstore.

By the way: I just discovered the following remark in KC101's Grammar Bank, in the chapter about -(으)시 Honorific Infix:

" -시 + 어요 can become both 세요 and 셔요 - it was originally 셔요
but 세요 has become more common because it's easier to pronounce"

[sweizhong]

~(으)시~
(동사와 형용사 어간, 이다, 아니다 뒤에, 다른 어미 앞에 붙어) 문장의 주어를 존대하는 의미를 나타내는 어미.

~(으)셔요는 '~(으)세요'로 바꿔 쓸 수 있다.