particles and particle omission?

[chouclement1627]

I'v had something on my mind for a while now that I don't understand and I'm not sure whether I'm the only one with this question. lol Here's the scenario.
Right now, the Church I'm going to has tons of Koreans, which is doing wonders for me. I'm not intermediate yet... I'm just way too self-consciou about using Korean with people I don't know, I just get paranoid about how bad my Korean sounds. lol But whenever I use it I learn new words, so that's good I guess. But here's my question.
In Korean, especially during conversations, I find myself hearing that alot of particles get omitted. "Have you eaten" becomes 밥 먹었어? it is correct and "Where are you going" becomes "eodi ga?". Is there a specific rule as to when particles can be omitted? Or does it not matter? I'm just trying to figure it out because I asked a friend a while back and she said that something like "밥을 먹었어?" sounds strange. Is it just me or do othr people wonder the same thing? I think that'd be a good lesson at some point. Would be short, but would be a good one to know. lol I never figured this out when I started... sentences always sounded odd because there weren't any particles atatched. Any help would be appreciated.
Also, something else confusing me about the word of the day... whenever I click on the link that I get in the email for the definitio and sample sentences, it just brings me back to the word of the day page, wher I get options to embedd the widget in my site or follow the steon facebook and twitter. Again, is it just me? Thanks!

[trutherous]

Hello "chouclement1627"

You ask a very good question. The omission of particles seems to fall under a habit of speech rather than any hard and fast rule. I have observed that particles are sometimes omitted where there is no confusion created by their omission.

--off the subject--

I know you just used "밥 먹었어" as an example of an omitted particle, but a great deal more can be said about asking someone in Korean "Have you eaten?" First off you do understand that there are levels of politeness of speech in Korean? Anyway, '밥 먹었어?' is about the lowest level -- this form would only be used between intimate friends or from adult to child. You can, of course, make it a little more polite by adding '요' Ironically you could not only leave out the particle but also '밥' and just say '먹었어?' but '밥' here represents "a meal.' Another oddity this construction illustrates is the common practice of omitting the subject 'you' when it is assumed that the listener knows he is the subject. Where 'Have YOU eaten' should logically be '너(는) 밥(을) 먹엇어?' yet we see no adherence to this convention in everyday speech.

Some ways to ask if one has taken a meal (in condescending order of politeness):

진지를 드셨습니까? (very polite old style as if spoken to Grandfather) Have you taken your meal?
식사 하셨어요? (still very polite) Have you taken a meal? -- Have you eaten?
밥 먹었어요? (informal but moderately polite) - = Did you eat? -- Have you eaten?
밥 먹었어? 밥 먹었니? (intimate form - never use to an elder or toward one of higher social status i.e. the boss/a teacher) -= Did ya eat?

Have fun and please help keep these forums alive

George -- a fellow student

P.S. Never be afraid to use your Korean -- the worst that could happen is you will be corrected and learn something new

[chouclement1627]

Yeah, all the things you mentioned I knew already aside from the first form of asking the question. Nice to have confirmation though... so there is no particular circumstances when particles should be omitted or not, it's a matter of the particular sentence, correct? Because if there's a pattern,it's completely slipped my mind. It's also a bit of a contrast to Japanese which I am also studying, because in that language particles are more or less never omitted. As to being afraid to use my Korean, I don't think it would bother me so much if half the time I don't ven know the vocabulary of what I want to say. Or when I go over a sentence in my head to gt ready to say something, it sounds wrong to me so I just ditch the attempt. But thanks for the help, and I will definitely try and post more... seems like this forum is pretty deserted. though oddly enough, topics seem to get a lot of views... and do you have any idea about that word of the day problem I wrote about?
Also, something else just came to me while I was listening to a song just now. What is the difference between neundae and jiman?
Again, thanks for the help.
One and one more thing... almost forgot. Politeness levels are the thing I've been learning about the most with real life experience. lol I know there are three of them, I know how to conjugate them... the problem is just when to use informal polite and when to use intimate. The line is quite think, and whenever you ask Koreans, you get different answers dependng on who you asks. The pastor of my Korean ministry is the one I use informal polite to, yet all the other church members suggest that I use intimate level to them. I'm guessing that is, although they are older by a few years, we are of the same social status and know each other well? I do use informal politeness with some peple, but only with the people I either occasionally talk to or haven't had long conversations with. And also, I've noticed that when speaking during services, my pstor speaks in foral politeness level, which I expect. However, religious vocabulary is so diferent, and although we have english translations, the analytical part of my brain always tries to match the sentences... and I understand almost none of it. That, or the word I think should be used is substituted for some other word borrowed from Chinese, or just an older Korean word for it. So confusing! lol
Anyway.. done with my rambling.

[trutherous]

First off, I apologize for not being able to answer your post in the technical forum. It appears that you have a unique situation. Secondly, I hope that my use of Hangul does not hinder your learning process. Sorry, I do not know how to properly romanize Hangul.

What is the difference between neundae and jiman?

Great question! They are very similar and often interchangeable like "but" and "however." While I cannot explain accurately in grammatical terms I will attempt to convey my impression of these patterns:

~~는데... neundae -- usually means "however" ex: I have a Korean hymnal, however, the text is so small it's difficult to read. Han-gook chansonggah kajigo eetnundae gulsi nomoo jagaso ilkgiga oryoweoyo 한국 찬송가 가지고 있는데 글씨 너무 작아서 읽기가 어려워요. But 는데 can also mean "during/while" like "while something was happening something else happened' ex: 아침에 학교에 가려는데 미나가 왔어요 ahchimae hakkyoae gahryoneundae Minaga wasseoyo - I was about to leave for school in the morning when Mina came over.

~~지만... jiman -- means more specifically "but," as in: I have a Korean hymnal with me but I don't know how to read it. Hangook chansonggah kajigo eetgeemahn illgul jool mollayo 한국 찬송가 가지고 있지만 읽을 줄 몰라요.

additional note: ~~는데(요) may end a sentence construction in conversation (so don't be confused with the conjunctive form), lending alternate meanings depending on circumstance and intonation, such as:

한국 찬송가 가지고 있는데요 - I have a Korean hymnal with me (why do you ask?).

한국 찬송가 가지고 있는데요 - (Of course) I have a Korean hymnal.

한국 찬송가 가지고 있는데요 - I have a Korean hymnal (isn't that good enough?).

Regarding levels of etiquette:
Except where there is a LARGE age difference I think it best if you make it a habit to use a moderate level of respect at all times while learning Korean, especially toward anyone working in an official position, such as a pastor.

I have observed that there are two major divisions of speech etiquette in Korean, "respect" (존댓말) and "intimate"(반말), and there are somewhat unofficial levels within the "respect" strata that roughly break down along these lines "Ultra Respect" "Polite Formal" and "Polite Casual." Because the showing of respect in Korean uses word forms that elevate the social position of the listener, often in combination with word forms that lower the status of the speaker, this becomes too complex a subject to cover here in a few words.

Keep up the good work. Use your Korean.

[chouclement1627]

Sigh. Seems like another structure I'll have to learn through experience, which is good. And don't worry about romanization or hangul... I can read both. I just either have to put it through a romanizer, or use a Korean tts engine to read it. Jus benefits to learning foreign languages totally blind, especially languages that don't use the Latin alphabet. And i seems like noone posts here anymore. lol

[trutherous]

I guess I always knew I was "no one"

Have a great day! I'm in Los Angeles, by the way, I wouldn't mind coming to your church one Sunday if you are in the vicinity.

[chouclement1627]

Well, I meant more that few people posted here... I didn't mean to imply you were nobody. As for coming to my Church, if you're eve in Vancouver Canada let me know... it'd be a fun time.
Oh yeah. Prime exampl of differing prefernces to Korean politeness levels... I was talking to smeone I met today and we were going to leave church together. She told me she was ready to leave, and I said "geurae. Gajayo.: And she told me I should just say "gaja". I asked her, "But am I not supposed to be politer to yu since you're older than me and we haven't known each other long?" And she came back with, "No need to. We're friends."
Just thought that'd be interesting to share... it really seems to depend on who you talk to. Some pople take longer to geting to intimate politeness leve, bu with others it seems to happen quit quikly.