Hanja in the PDF's

[auntie68]

Good morning. Captain Keith, I really appreciate the good news. But I'm afraid I don't quite understand (fuzzy morning brain). Is it easier to (i) explain that "this is the 우 as in 우유 but NOT the 우 as in 좌우 and btw, it's a different character from the 우 in 현우 or 좨(sp.?)우재..." or (ii) simply write the hanja somewhere in the vocab table?

I'm curious to find out one thing from Keith, who is in a unique position to know because he is fluent in Korean (being a Korean-American) but doesn't know any hanja: How do you distinguish between all those words that sound alike but have different meanings? I'm not trying to be funny or disrespectful; my own brother, who doesn't know Chinese, grew up thinking that his own name -- 王守仁 -- meant "Yellow-Hand-Man".

All the best to all --

Auntie／ 姨妈／ 이모/ Tatie

[auntie68]

But I don't think there's so many people that have previously knowledge of Hanja on our website. I suspect the majority of our listeners don't have any background in Hanja, unless it was studied from either Chinese or Japanese.

Hello again. I think you may find that quite a lot of your registered clients are also registered with JapanesePod101, your sister site. And I see some familiar names belonging to the friendly "ChinesePod crowd" too. Hanja is not kanji, and kanji is not hanja, but knowing the one does help in the learning of the other. I know it sounds peculiar, but in a way, if you have studied either Chinese or Japanese, you do actually have a background in Hanja.

Thanks! We love you!

[Taliana]

I don't think that it's really a point that "Hanja would be good to include because" members here are also members of the sister sites - I for one have a free account on the Japanese site and Survival Phrases one just because I wanted to have a nose around.

I think it's also something to point out that: the people interested in learning hanja aren't just the ones with a background in Japanese or Chinese. (I did study Japanese for a few very brief months, but never learnt more than maybe five kanji, therefore I don't consider myself with a background in Japanese).

I just feel that as part of the Korean language it is something that is important to learn at some point in time. Even though its being phased out bit by bit in modern times, even though it is not necessary to know it, it's still a part of the language.

Anyway, this was just a reply to remind aunti68 that it is not just the Chinese and Japanese students who want some hanja learning. If it's going to be included, then I want to see it being included properly, aimed at being helpful for someone who DOESN'T necessarily have a Japanese/Chinese background. If it's introduced in a way that is deliberatedly aimed at Chinese/Japanese speakers, then it runs the risk of being useless for everyone else.

Sorry auntie68 if I am simply reading into your words wrongly here ^^; (and Keith I am sure that it being geared to Chinese/Japanese speakers was not your intention anyway, I'm just saying XD; )

I am just really, really happy that there is the possibility for Hanja to be included at the higher levels, and want to see it being included in a way that's going to be helpful for everyone, even those who have never even seen them before.

[auntie68]

Hi Taliana. I do agree with you! I'm fully confident that Captain Keith and the wonderful team will be able to find some kind of middle ground that -- in an inobtrusive way, and only for those who want it -- can facilitate the recognition of hanja behind the most common sino-korean words.

But I have the feeling that learning hanja "properly" as you say, ie with stroke-by-stroke instruction, with a view to writing (vs mere recognition) may be too much to ask for. I could be wrong on this, Taliana, but even for college-educated, middle class Koreans today, mere recognition is enough for all their needs. The only Korean person I ever met who actually needed to be able to write hanja for his work was a senior economics researcher, who used mixed hanja and hangul in his publications. The actual usage/writing of hanja is something that takes years and years of serious study. Lawyers and economists and literature professors may use hanja in their work, but my guess is that they probably wouldn't use any hanja beyond the vocabulary of their specific professional area. I fear that this silly Auntie may have raised some expectations (accidentally) that may not be realistic. Sorry to all!

[Taliana]

I didn't mean to sound as though I was putting too much importance on the stroke-order thing, since that is very advanced and I doubt that anyone would need it in a practical situation. Recognition is the key focus, of course, I completely agree ^^

But I was thinking also of the fact that Korean highschool students are (or were?) expected to know something like 1,200 hanja (some sources said more, some said less, seems like it's less of an expectation these days). So now I'm curious: were they expected to only be able to recognise them, or were they expected to have some idea of how to write them, too?

Obviously these days being able to write them isn't so important, chances are most things you'd write that would even MAYBE need hanja are going to be things you type rather than handwrite - and computers have that handy convert-to-hanja function so recognition really is all that's required there.

I think I'm just the kind of person who wants to "do it right" ... I mean, I learnt hangul before I started learning Korean, because I don't want to go anywhere near romanisation (I do know how to use it, I just hate doing it). I guess I just put as much importance on the written language as I do the spoken language.

Probably because I don't talk much, but I write a lot XD;

[auntie68]

Dear Tatiana, I understand you perfectly now. Thanks.

We are more alike than I had realized. For the past three years, I have been studying Thai. In the last two years or so, I was studying written Thai. The Thai "alphabet has (wait for it! ) 46 consonants and 32 vowels. Spelling rules are hellish because of the desire to preserve some semblance of the Sanskrit or Pali spelling of the many words borrowed from Sanskrit or Pali. When you mix that together with the need for the writing system to reflect tones as well, that's how many letters you need.

But strangely, nothing has made learning Thai easier for me than learning to read and write it. With time, new words are retained more easily, and I can better guess at their meaning, because I may know other Thai words that share their roots.

Guess that is why I can never seem to remember a Thai person's name if I only read it in transliteration (Eg. "Sondhi"), but can usually remember it fine if I can see it written in Thai script. I fully, totally, agree with Captain Keith's very brave emphasis on learning hangul at an early stage, rather than relying on romanized Korean. Without hangul, how would a foreign student of Korean have a clue as to how to conjugate essential words like 있다 or 많이 save by mindless memorization? That little ㅆ and that tiny ㅎ make all th difference. Tatiana, I hope that what I have just typed sounds friendly, because that's how I meant it.

Take care,
Auntie

[auntie68]

Oops, 많이 is not a verb (as far as I know), but I think you know what I mean...

[Keith]

Hey Auntie

The truth is, the only way I can differentiate between syllables is from context. And knowing Hanja would definitely be beneficial to my own Korean language education! I would love to be one of those old scholars that have long white beards with big black hats, walking around with an old Buddhist text written all in Hanja. But, I'm not there yet... hehe But in all honesty, as a Korean speaker/student, there is not much need to know the actual Chinese characters. With the exception of a few when reading newspapers, which is an extremely high level, Hanja is pretty much obsolete in modern day Korea.

But you can definitely tell that Hanja is laced ALL OVER Korean. And even though certain words have similar pronunciations, I think it's still best to learn it from the sounds, because Hanja would be excessive to learn. As Taliana suggested, it is definitely part of the language, and should be studied at some point. However, the way we are gearing this Hanja PDF is for lower intermediate and up, when learning the "hanja sounds," are relevant to Korean language education, and not necessarily the Chinese Characters (although we will be be including these in the PDF's as well).

I don't know if I made any sense with that I need more sleep. haha! I'm not sure if I answered your question, but, as always, feel free to ask again!

[Taliana]

Auntie68: Yes, everything in that post sounded friendly XD I have a problem with that myself, I say something, and people think I'm mad when I'm not ^^'' So I hope you didn't think I was mad either! (I'm sure you didn't)

Keith: You're too funny to be a scholar! XD I guess you could be a kinda crazy one though ... but I'm really glad that the hanja pdfs are being worked on I love how this place keeps adding things and improving things, and that what we want is really taken into consideration. I bought a year's premium subscription yesterday, so seeing things like this really makes me happy. You guys do tons of great work!

[Brakenjan]

Keith: So really , what you mean is to have it such as in Handbook of Korean vocabulary where emphasis is placed on the root syllable (sound) and not the hanja character, but character is also given, yes??

[auntie68]

If that is so, I really wonder how KoreanClass101 is going to "swing it". The hanja character for "female" is read as "여" or 녀", depending on the context, it will be instructive to see how they explain that one without any reference whatsoever to Hanja. Good luck!

[Keith]

Brakenjan, yes! That book really summarizes what I was talking about! Thanks for letting us know!

So we will be focusing on the root syllable, the phonetic syllable. But the Hanja will also be given

I'm getting excited!

[Brakenjan]

wooh..I'm a hero!! ^ ^

[watermen]

Definitely, include Hanja. I will subscribe to KClass101 when Hanja is included. Korean should continue to use Hanja, it is such a beautiful thing.

[assampedas]

I'm probably speaking for the minority here, but as someone with a good knowledge of Chinese (written, spoken, Mandarin and a smattering of Southern dialects, which sometimes have pronunciation closer to Korean/Japanese than Mandarin), as well as some familiarity of Japanese, I find Hanja (and kanji) a great help to remembering words. I depend on Chinese and Japanese all the time to help me learn Korean, whether in terms of vocabulary, grammar or cultural concepts.

So both hands up from me for Hanja in the PDFs!