Usage of "ㅂ" in place of "ㅁ"?

[timandyou]

I think... you are "the only weirdo..." "it's a joke from Tim!"
It's possible... Since I don't know your nationality or background, I can't say that if it is weird or not.

맛있다 vs, 밧있다???
뭐 vs, 붜???

I don't know how to help you, man...
Maybe... George knows how to...
"Hello, George~", "we need your help~~!"
cheers,

Tim

[julia3202]

I know exactly what you're talking about, hearing it live.


와 (come) sounds like "mow ah" to me. English speakers would voice "o" distinctly. Without it, some consonant is presumed by English phonetics .

[trutherous]

There are many pronunciations that overlap, ㅁ/ㅂ is just one example; these can be more or less obvious depending on the individual speaker/listener. Dime and Time obviously rhyme, but a similar sound nuance does not mean we can wantonly substitute D for T or vice-versa. There are some people (such as myself) who insist that distinct differences in subtle variance of sound should not be obscured, but preserved instead - at least until dead. Then such changes as are appropriate might be incorporated into the phonetic representation of such pronunciation. For example, in American English "water" ought to be written 'wadder," because the 't' is pronounced as 'd' (hey that's just like ㄷ! ), but that does not mean we accept such changes in dis, dat, and de odder ding (this, that, and the other thing). This is why I humbly request that our ㅁ be ㅁ, and our ㅂ be ㅂ.

However, 맛있다/밧있다 is a good example of obscured pronunciation, and indeed I too have noticed the tendency of many Koreans to blend ㅁ/ㅂ pronunciation as mentioned above. I particularly noticed this nasal nuance in young women around the Seoul area, especially when they speak with 애교 in their voice, along with that cute little pouting expression where the mouth is opened more in the shape of than .. also I hear the same pronunciation from clueless young guys who don't realize they are not 10 years old anymore.

바람직하다 not 마랍직하다

비빔밥 not 미밉맘

ok everyone, lets get the Q-tips and clean out the 귓밥 (or should I say 귓맘?)

Another interesting turncoat is ㅈ and ㅊ -I would like to believe that ㅈ always sounds like J in 주다 or 주무시다 - but in reality when we say "잘 주무셨어요?" the ㅈ in 잘 sounds closer to ㅊ, and when we answer "네 잘 잤읍니다" the first ㅈ in 잘 sounds more like J but the second ㅈ in 잤다 sounds much more like ㅊ, at least to my ear.

[orbiter]

I found proof!

It is true that it is kids that mostly do it, but the actress Hwang Jung Eum has the uncanny habit of pronouncing her "m"s as "b"s and her "n"s as "d"s. Perhaps it is a form of 애교...?

증거: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkArcd2h7po

@22 secs "모르곘음 sounds (slightly) like "보르곘음"
@1.04: listen to the way she says "농담" and "마세요" and "네"
@1.55: 신세경 does it too!
@2.17: The kids do it to a serious extend, esp here "만들면 돼"
@4.06: 유인나's "뭐 하는거냐"

...아닌..가...?

[trutherous]

muddle muddle muddle -- all those 고구려 people speak the middle muddle -- come on down to 가야 땅 and learn why 부산 is pronounced BUsan and not MUsan 메롱! or should I say BAE-rong ㅋㅋㅋ

[manyakumi]

I found proof!

It is true that it is kids that mostly do it, but the actress Hwang Jung Eum has the uncanny habit of pronouncing her "m"s as "b"s and her "n"s as "d"s.
Perhaps it is a form of 애교...?

증거: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkArcd2h7po

@22 secs "모르곘음 sounds (slightly) like "보르곘음"
@1.04: listen to the way she says "농담" and "마세요" and "네"
@1.55: 신세경 does it too!
@2.17: The kids do it to a serious extend, esp here "만들면 돼"
@4.06: 유인나's "뭐 하는거냐"

...아닌..가...?

No offense, but that proof seems only work for you.
They all sound clearly for me, as a native.

But I understand why you are having trouble with those matters.
Koreans tend to speak light, which means not to use their whole system of pronunciation but just lips and tongue tip.
Probably it makes the sounds closer each other and harder to be distinguished by you, westerners who are not sounding that way.



And one more thing...
Hwang Jung Eum's words didn't contain any 애교s.



Sean.

[timandyou]

haha~~ good commenting!
thanks!!!!
cheers,
Tim

[trutherous]

well Sean I certainly agree with you -

I know that our interpretation of sound has a lot more to do with being familiar with what we hear than on the speakers actual pronunciation. For example there are people who can do accurate imitation of animal sounds, a pig, horse, chicken, or dog -- sounds that we cannot accurately write down in any language -- and then there are people who only hear "bow-wow, ruff ruff 멍멍 웡웡"

A reasonable experiment would be to have a group of people who do not speak Korean listen to a Korean song and write down the words they hear. I know of one such person that listened to a Korean song over and over and over and wrote down the words in English --He later even argued with a native speaker that his lyrics were perfect and accurate. Without getting into the whole song here is part of what he heard and then transcribed into English:

The actual sounds:
왜 가 왜 떠나가 속시원히 말해줘 내게 속삭여줘
What he heard and wrote in English:
Laygah Let-toe-nogah soakshie one-he maulhayjoe naygay soaksagiojoe

What I would point out in particular is that this person insisted on hearing a non-existent 'L' sound before "왜," I actually heard this person insist there there was an 'L' sound (을래가 을래 토나가) and no amount of persuasion could convince him otherwise.

Anyway, when I compare the ㅂ and ㅁ sounds I notice they are made almost the same way in the mouth, except that ㅂ is pronounced with an expulsion of air from the lips, whereas ㅁ is more nasal and stays in the mouth.

what fun

[manyakumi]

The actual sounds:
왜 가 왜 떠나가 속시원히 말해줘 내게 속삭여줘
What he heard and wrote in English:
Laygah Let-toe-nogah soakshie one-he maulhayjoe naygay soaksagiojoe

What I would point out in particular is that this person insisted on hearing a non-existent 'L' sound before "왜," I actually heard this person insist there there was an 'L' sound (을래가 을래 토나가) and no amount of persuasion could convince him otherwise.

Though I have no idea what song is that, it seems not to be a good example.
Because some singers tend to distort their pronunciation in purpose to make their songs rhythmical and attractive.
We, the natives also feel hard to recognize those kind of songs' lyrics only by listening.

Anyway, when I compare the ㅂ and ㅁ sounds I notice they are made almost the same way in the mouth, except that ㅂ is pronounced with an expulsion of air from the lips, whereas ㅁ is more nasal and stays in the mouth.

Very good point.
You have a great insight, George.

A reasonable experiment would be to have a group of people who do not speak Korean listen to a Korean song and write down the words they hear. I know of one such person that listened to a Korean song over and over and over and wrote down the words in English.

I think this point is where the problem starts.

"...wrote down the words in ENGLISH"

If you want to overcome this matter you have to forget about all the English sounds at least when you are learning Korean.
Although it is very hard or sometimes it might be seem impossible.
Writing in English will remind you the sounds of English language constantly,
and you will keep asking to yourself like this...

'Huh? ㅁ sound is different from M sound.. Isn't it closer to B sound...? Hmmmm'



However, I'm feeling the same in learning English, too. lol

Sean.

[timandyou]

Thanks all the replies, 영훈님 & 김 감독님...
제가 별로 할말이 없네요~~
cheers,
Tim

[orbiter]

Anyway, when I compare the ㅂ and ㅁ sounds I notice they are made almost the same way in the mouth, except that ㅂ is pronounced with an expulsion of air from the lips, whereas ㅁ is more nasal and stays in the mouth.

I think the above quote describes perfectly what I hear...

It is really interesting how it works for new language learners. Because in the beginning, this pronunciation thing seemed quite obvious to me. But as I got deeper into the language, I don't notice it anymore unless I really try.

Anyway, one point was made that I really agree with - new language learners should try not to learn the language through another i.e. learning Korean through English or Japanese through romaji. It may help in the beginning, but will only serve as a stumbling block later.

Which makes me wonder - kids in China, Macau, Malaysia and Singapore officially learn Mandarin through hanyu pinyin, which is essentially learning chinese using the english alphabet. This can't be all that good....

Out of curiosity - how do Koreans view lisps? Do teachers try to correct lisps, or are they generally accepted? Are there many people with lisp issues?

[trutherous]

Another thought I had was that perhaps some of these girls had too much botox and collagen injected into their lips..

[orbiter]

Another thought I had was that perhaps some of these girls had too much botox and collagen injected into their lips..

Gasp. Come to think of it, I've never heard men with this pronunciation issue.

You may be on to something here...

[joshuamcculloch7863]

The key here that everyone needs to realize is the simple fact, Korean cannot be compared to English. This makes it extremely difficult to learn, but its a truth you have to come to except. The fact you hear an m/b when they pronounce the letter is due to the fact they have there tongue in a different position then when we pronounce our M.

So they are two different sounds, its just that we are comparing it to the m to give you some sort of basis.

for example the "ㄱ" letter while we may compare it to a "g" sound, in all honesty, isn't the "g" sound. "ㄱ" is closer to k+g. This is due to the way you position your tongue . Another great example of this is the English word "Wall", when im attempting to teach Korean children this, they struggle with the word often pronouncing it "warl" due to the natural position of their tongue.

So the overall point im trying to make is...are you hearing b or m? you are hearing both, and neither. What you are hearing is ㅁ.

There are some books out there that show you how to position your tongue to get the proper sound.

[manyakumi]

Very good explanation, Joshua!
Thank you for commenting it.

Yes, the position of tongue is more important than the shape of lips in pronouncing Korean letters.


Tips:
Let your mouth ready to sound "k" and sound with your "voice". (I mean "voiced K")
Then you'll hear the natural "ㄱ" sound.

In the same way,
Let your mouth ready to sound "p" and sound with your "voice".
Then you'll hear the natural "ㅂ" sound.

And let your mouth ready to sound "b" and make the deeper part of your tongue block the air.
Then the sound moves up to your nose naturally and it will give you a "ㅁ" sound.




Sean.