Mix and match

[julia3202]

I've been pondering the correctness matrix of honorific infix and yo.

We have: Verb-stem+ 시 + 요
. No. Yes = standard politeness
. Yes. No = honorific on subject , informal to listener.

But does the last combo make sense in any context when the subject is the listener? It would not seem so.

In other words can you be honorific and casual to a listener or does that blow a social circuit?

[timandyou]

Hello Julia,

Which lesson is it?
Julia... it is not easy to clearly explain about it.
I need to know your Korean level first.
cheers,

Tim

[julia3202]

It was introduced in was in beginner season two, #2.

I'm still quite the beginner. However, the parts that I remember from that lesson are, '시' honorific infix, refers to the subject of the verb, while politeness level refers to the listener one is speaking to. I think the dialog was constructed specifically to make that distinction clear.

아저씨 speaks to 아가씨 about her mother** .

어머니 는 괜찮으셔

** I'm still being driven to distraction. In english I'd just say her mother, but what would happening typically in Korean conversation -- her mother or just 'mother'? >_< Too many romance languages demand the particulars.. =)

So I think get the basics.

However, it would not seem to ever make any sense to be honorific when speaking to somebody _and_ apply casual endings... ? But it would really depend on usage and the intent known to be taken from it.

[trutherous]

Hi again Julia

I'll be honest, I really didn't understand your question at first, now that you have added more information I think I see what you are asking about.

I still get confused about the use of honorifics in the Korean language because it is very complex; honorifics could easily be the subject of an entire book.

There are probably at least 5 levels of respect (or disrespect) nuance in the Korean language based on 'words/particles' that raise or lower the social position of speaker, listener, and 3rd party, as well as the "to 시 or not to 시" final verb forms. BTW "to 시 or not to 시" was my shameless play on Shakespeare's "to be or not to be," just in case nobody got it

Mastery of proper use of respect nuance in Korean language demonstrates true fluency. A huge amount of the 'put-downs' and verbal slap-downs in the Korean dramas have less to do with vocabulary and everything to do with verbal sparring using condescending levels of respect.

Some comments and examples:

아저씨 speaks to 아가씨 about her mother** .

어머니 는 괜찮으셔

two possible meanings:

1. (about her mother) 어머니는 괜찮으셔? Is your mom all right? or How is your mom?
2. (about his mother) 어머니는 괜찮으셔. My mom is doing fine.

어머니는 괜찮으셔? - a modest respect of mother yet intimate with listener
어머님은 괜찮으세요? - respects mother and polite with listener
어머님께서는 괜찮으십니까? - highly respects mother and formal/polite listener

These nuances of respect are difficult to express in English because English lacks a structure based on Confucian ideals (삼강 오륜), some Koreans will disagree with my translation of these nuances based on how they learned English --but as a native-born English mother-tongue speaking American I make the closest approximations I can.

[timandyou]

Hello Julia~~
First of all, I must say "thank you" for your passion for learning Korean.

Julia... I guess you are American...? maybe not...? anyway.. you speak English right?
Okay... let's say you are trying to teach English to someone who doesn't know English well. How would you teach him/her? What would be your best advice for him/her?

"KEEP IT SIMPLE!"

Julia, you don't have to understand every lessons with details.
As you said, you are "Beginner".
I really think you are going too far...
Learning language must be step by step; otherwise, rules and grammar points do not make sense.
For example, before learning about 시 or 세.

First, you must know about standard verb, which ends in "-다" (먹다, 쓰다, 보다...)

Second, you must know about 'verb-stem' - 먹 (먹다), -쓰 (쓰다), -보 (보다)...

Third, you must know about the form of "---요", which ends in ---요
(먹다 becomes 먹어요, 써다 becomes 써요, 보다 becomes 보아요...)

Then, you may learn about 'honorific suffix' 시 or 세.
1. about --세, (먹다 becomes 먹으세요, 쓰다 becomes 쓰세요, 보다 becomes 보세요...)
2. about --시, the formation of '시' is 'verb stem' + (으)시 + ㅂ 니다.
(먹다 becomes 먹으십니다, 쓰다 becomes 쓰십니다, 보다 becomes 보십니다...)

Of course, there are a lot more to learn between and after those grammar points.
Julia... my point is this - KEEP IT SIMPLE and learn one by one, one at a time!
I hope you understand my point.
best,

Tim

[timandyou]

Thanks for your time and effort~~
cheers,

Tim

[julia3202]

American, poisoned by a lot of British. I'll only admit to speaking English, on occasion, and under extreme duress...

Currently working in a sport environment involving 95% Korean kids. Most communication is in Korean. Everything from the coaching to the moms. =) I feel rude imposing on them as a group to switch to English just for my sake. Occasionally I might find myself in the position of herding/directing boisterous kids. It doesn't hurt to know what they might be saying or apply some Korean on them. bwahaha.

I've been exposed to Latin, studied German for two years at college level and generally interested/educated in Linguistics/Cultures. I tutored briefly Latin to one individual. So you can say I've been around the language learning block a little.

Grammar is one thing, a matter of practice, natural usage is another animal.

The core of my question would be would a Korean ever say: 괜찮으셔 As "Are you all right?"

I'm a little bit asking because the honorific does seem to function to indicate politeness as with 'please give me'. I'm trying to get some better understanding of how it's used.

So I am thinking perhaps "주셔" could _possibly_ be used even in a casual environment in order not to sound harsh(?) I'm trying to find out if something like 줘 is just plainly too harsh and 요 might be a little out of place ( I think you can see maybe where I might be in that situation).

[trutherous]

Julia, I think you are very wise to be asking for clarification on this important topic.

To a child 괜찮아? 괜찮니? To a peer 괜찮아요? To a mother, boss, etc. 괜찮으세요?

주다: I think 주셔 is kind of used mostly from children to parents or younger siblings to older siblings. I think 줘요 might be just the middle muddle you are seeking, it should be fine for use with equals and teens as well.

Give (to) me 줘, 줘요, 주세요, 주십시오
Will you give me? 주겠니? 주겠어? 주시겠어요?

I do agree with Tim on "keeping it simple," at least to a point, that is when first learning "basic" structures.

When teaching English it is fairly easy to keep it simple -- because we don't have a system of honorifics!

"Frank hit the ball." ...period... The same phrase is perfectly acceptable when speaking to God, an elder, a peer, a sibling, or a child -- this is not the case when learning Korean.

Basics first, of course, but we can't stop there:

[julia3202]

Well, everybody is bilingual to a greater or lesser degree.

I'm in the position of being roughly the same age or older than various parents. Older than instructors, but following their direction within the context of the sport activity, but I also have organizational responsibilities.

I think I'm in an interesting place socially.