pattern ㄴ 지

[paekdusan]

I have a grammar question. It's not difficult, but I think it's going to be difficult to articulate it.

So I'm watching a drama (of which I understand maybe 5% of the words ^.^) and a one of the guys says to the girl:
"이름이 뭔지 물어봐도 돼요?"

First of all, am I hearing this correctly? Is that a grammatically correct sentence?

If so, here's my question.

I'm familiar with the pattern ~지 알다/모르다. But I've never noticed it used like the sentence above. What else can I use with this ..(으)ㄴ 지… construction?

Why doesn't he just say "이름 물어봐도 돼요?" What does the ~ㄴ 지 add to this sentence?

Can I just make up other sentences with this pattern? How about this?
- 서울역 어딘지 물어봐도 돼요?

I guess what I'm asking is… how does ㄴ 지 differ from adding a particle (을/를, 이/가) or a nominalizing suffix (~ㄴ/은/는 것)?

Does my question make sense. Help!

[trutherous]

Why doesn't he just say "이름 물어봐도 돼요?" What does the ~ㄴ 지 add to this sentence?

I suppose people do ask that way sometimes but it's a little odd sounding if you drop '뭔지' (a contraction of 무엇인지), it would be more natural to just ask the name e.g. 이름이 뭐예요? rather than asking if it's ok to ask, which is a very polite way to indirectly ask for the name. The technically accurate answer to any '물어봐도 돼요' question would be simply 'yes' (you can ask) or 'no' (I don't want you asking), but nobody answers like that because everyone understands that you have basically already asked.

이름이 무엇인지 물어봐도 돼요? - May I ask what your name is?
이름(은) 물어봐도 돼요? -May I ask your name?

Can I just make up other sentences with this pattern? How about this?
- 서울역 어딘지 물어봐도 돼요?

Yes! Excellent! Keep doing that.

I can see you are a serious student of Korean so I am going to recommend a book to you, this book is practically an antique now but I have seen very few books come since that build a better foundation for students of Korean language. It is not a particularly fun book to work through, but the lessons are well organized. The vocabulary section in the back of the book is the best I've seen, and there is a large language pattern index as well. The ISBM number is 0-930878-51-5 just run that number in Amazon's search engine and you should come up with 'Speaking Korean Book II" by Francis Y.T. Park

I think it's out of print, I see only 'used' available on Amazon, but you may still be able to find a new copy somewhere. I know there's a bookstore here in K-town that still has a couple dusty copies on the shelf. In fact I may go buy the remaining copies this weekend...

[paekdusan]

Thanks! Now two follow-ups...

Thanks for the book recommendation. Actually, I already own the Speaking Korean volumes and I, too, think they're great. However, I don't think they're very good as far as textbooks go. Each chapter is only about 10 pages long, each introduces a ton of new words and 4 or 5 new grammar patterns. A little much for anyone but an advanced learner, I think. And if you were an advanced learner, then all of the exercises would be a bit useless since they all take the form of simple substitution and transformation drills. That said, I still think they're great -- as reference books. I consult them often because they are jam packed full of vocab and grammar. In fact, I've found no other textbook or reference book to date that is as "dense" with information as these are. (Again, great thing to have in a reference book, not so much in a beginner's textbook.)

Incidentally, they still publish Speaking Korean (at least volumes I and II anyway), and they now come packaged with a CD. You can find them on Amazon.com if you'd like. I also have the "antique" versions and several pages have started to come loose from the binding.

Okay... now onto the grammar question itself.

Right now my understanding of this pattern is very "shallow". It's like when you learn a new phrase or pattern in passing (not from a book). You hear it. You start to incorporate it into your own speech. And then you try experimenting by substituting other words in that sentence to see if your new sentences make sense too. And I feel like I can do that here. For example:

1.) I hear (for the first time): 이름이 뭔지 물어봐도 돼요?
2.) I try a basic substitution, like: 전화번호가 뭔지 물어봐도 돼요?
3.) I then get a little bolder and swap out two of the words: 서울역이 어딘지 물어봐도 돼요?

But my knowledge of what this pattern really "means" or "feels like" is not there yet. I have tried looking it up in several books (Speaking Korean, Yonsei's Grammar for International Learners, etc.) but all I keep finding are the same ol' things like the ~지 알다/모르다 pattern.

Here's another example I found of the pattern, and this one doesn't use a follow on 알다/모르다/or 묻다.

커피 맛이 어땠는지 기억나? Do you remember how the coffee tasted?

I would have never been able to come up with that sentence by myself. I would have constructed it far differently (and probably incorrectly).

Maybe there is no answer to my question. I mean, I can recognize and understand sentences like this. I guess I'm just trying to make the leap of being able to use and come up with sentences like it on my own. And, so far, I haven't been able to do that with this "mysterious ~지". I suppose it's just one of those things that going to have to wait. Need more exposure to it until my brain just "clicks" on it one day, and I'm suddenly able to use it.

Hmmm.... back to my k-drama.

[trutherous]

Yes I agree with you about the Speaking Korean books, but as I attain greater fluency in Korean I often look back and say 'Oh yeah, I first learned that in those books.' The subsequent lessons did reinforce and build upon previous lesson patterns and vocabulary; however, the 'drills' did not seem like an effective method to achieve retention in memory. I think that's because the brain just puts itself in a loop for the particular pattern being drilled.

In school I was a poor student of English grammar so explaining Korean grammar to me was also pretty useless, I didn't know the difference between and adverb, a pronoun, or preposition at the time I began my Korean study. In fact studying Korean taught me more about English grammar than all the wasted years I spent in school. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that with exposure it all "clicks" into a place of understanding sooner or later.


After having learned to read Hangul, I spent the first year studying a series of 5 books called 생활영어 (Practical English) by 민병철 -- Yes -- no typo "Practical English" -- These were books designed to teach everyday situational English to Koreans but they had the Hangul equivalent phrases on the opposite page, I might add, without the distracting romanization that I found in books teaching Korean to foreigners. Anyway, these were the phrases I wanted to learn most, so I started studying them "in reverse," only being able to pronounce Hangul, at first not even knowing which part of the sentence matched with the English... I just kept reading them, practicing sentence by sentence, a lesson a day (50 lessons per book) and gradually the parts of speech became natural and made sense to me. Though I was at a loss as to how to explain them -- I just 'knew' what they meant, it was then that I found the Speaking Korean series to be quite useful.

K-dramas are great! Which one are you watching now? I'm currently watching 이웃집 웬수 and 국가가 부른다. I just finished 살맛 납니다 (too long and hated most of it, they should have called it 밥맛 떨어진다 ) and 제중원 (historical - loved it). So far my favorite drama has been 솔약국 집 아들들 for variety of humor, situation, language, tragedy, and romance, also a good variety of language.

Just trying to think up a few more examples
구분이 그 일을 어떻게 하는지 보세요. Please look at how he is doing that work.

그것이 뭔지 상관없어요. I don't care what that is.

커피 맛이 어땠는지 기억나? Do you remember how the coffee tasted?

Alternately: Do you remember what the coffee flavor was like (어땠는지)? I probably would have said '그때 커피 맛이 기억나?'

[paekdusan]

After having learned to read Hangul, I spent the first year studying a series of 5 books called 생활영어 (Practical English)

Yes, I love the books for English-learners! Aside from no romanization (yeah!), they usually have a far greater variety of sentence structures. When I first started learning Korean I was under a great misconception that (literally) most sentences ended in ~어 요 or ~ㅂ니다, with a possible ~었 or ~겠 in there as well. The beginner's books (and, sadly, my teachers at the time) all reinforced this bizarre and wildly inaccurate presentation of Korean. The problem with most of the books (written for English speakers) is that they're typically too concerned with sticking to one method of teaching. Maybe they only use patterns and vocab that have been previously introduced. This doesn't lend itself to very natural sounding Korean. And the problem with my teachers was that they all thought we were too stupid to comprehend how complex their language was and so they taught us "lies". ^^ I call them that, half-amusingly, because that's what they were. Lies like, "you only really need to know ~겠 to talk about the future. There are other patterns, but ~겠 is the most common." Ummm… well, sure it is. But only when you're learning predominantly from informational broadcasts and reading materials. And, oh by the way, it turns out that the "future" ~겠 isn't the most common usage of that infix. As it turns out, in modern Korean the "conjecture/guess" ~겠 is far more common. (Again, unless you're only reading newspapers and listening to tv news).

But, anyway, I digress. I love lots of different textbooks for many different reasons, but my small collection of 영어회화 books have proven invaluable to me! I could go on and on about this, but I'd just be preaching to the choir, I suppose. I can't recommend them highly enough.

K-dramas are great! Which one are you watching now?

지금은… (웃지마세요!)… "아내의 유혹" 보는 중이예요. It's extraordinarily melodramatic and, because the characters and action are exaggerated, it's very easy to understand even when I don't get most of the Korean. I'm not to the point yet where it does me any good to be selective about what I watch. At this point, I think I just need as much exposure as possible so that I can do as much active listening as I have time for. 서울에서 이본으로 이사하기전에 전자상가에서 여러가지 드라마와 영화 DVD를 샀어요. I don't know much about them, I just asked the vendor to give me a variety of action, drama, romance, comedy, etc. Again, not too selective. I just need to hear it for now. I'm also going to sign up for a television package here that includes KBSWorld and a channel called "AsiaDramatic" which should give me ample access to a variety of Korean listening opportunities.

커피 맛이 어땠는지 기억나? Do you remember how the coffee tasted? Alternately: Do you remember what the coffee flavor was like (어땠는지)? I probably would have said '그때 커피 맛이 기억나?'

음... this is kinda' what I'm feeling frustrated by. You say "you probably would have said…". But that's precisely the point I'm trying to reach. I'm trying to get to the point where I can just spontaneously use this pattern in conversation, but it has so far eluded me. I can use the ~지 알다/모르다 pattern just fine. And other patterns haven't caused me such grief. Frequently it's just a matter of looking it up or asking the right questions. But this one… for some reason this one isn't clicking yet. Not too big a deal, I suppose. I'm just a beginner, so LOTS of other patterns elude me too. ^o^

Thanks for your input and recommendations! So, am I to presume you live in/near K-Town? I've never been there before, but I'll bet it's a fantastic place to be if you want to improve or master your Korean. I feel very fortunate that I was able to live in Seoul for two years (and that's as "K" as it gets!) ^^ Would love to be nearer to a Korean community, though.

Oh, that reminds me. 일본에 온지 한 달 됐는데 한국사람 하나도 아직 못 만났어요. 그렇지만, 지난 주에 한글로 쓴 교회 간판을 봤어요. 한국 교회에서 한국어 수업이 종종 있다고 그래요? 여기도 그런 비슷하는 것이 있으면 좋겠어요. 네일은 알려보러 처음으로 갈거예요. Wish me luck. I sure hope they speak a little English, because I don't think my Korean skills are going to get me very far. ^^

[trutherous]

Your Korean is great. I am very pleased to meet you (so to speak). You have the right idea about diverse exposure, and you are the first student of Korean I've met who actually 'gets it' about using the books written to teach English to Koreans. I think you are right on the cusp of going from 15% listening comprehension to 85%, it will be like someone switched the light on, so hang in there. Language study is like saving money; at first we can't really buy anything and it doesn't seem like the little bit we deposit adds up, but before long we can buy a new car.

Yes I live just 10 miles from downtown Koreatown in LA. There are also many Koreans living in our valley. My wife is Korean too, of course, but spouses don't always make good teachers -especially when they speak English nearly all the time. She spoke English already when we met and I think she's afraid of forgetting - she even speaks English from her dreams.

I lived in all-Korean (except for me) boarding houses for a couple of years before I met my wife, but I have only been to Korea for 3 months in 1984 and again on 3 week vacation last year. However, we attend a large Korean church here, and there are many opportunities for conversation. Yes there is a Korean school in our church but it is mostly for 2nd generation kids from upper primary to middle school, and the overall level of Korean I have observed being practiced there is below middle school level.

I hope the Korean church becomes a place of joyful fellowship for you and provides ample opportunity to practice Korean.

George