Doubt

[terepalo]

I know this may be a stupid question but it’s been buggin’ me for a while so maybe you can help me?

About the building of 2 syllables when there’s a consonant followed by a vowel followed by a consonant followed again by a vowel (CVCV), sometimes the pattern is [cv] [cv] and other times it is like [cvc] [v] and I was wondering… is there any rule that states which pattern to use and when? It has something to do with suffixes/conjugations? Or maybe it’s totally random, depending on the word?

For example, these are random words from a korean web, I have no idea what they mean but they illustrate both patterns:
in 할말이 , why is it 말이 instead of 마리 ?
or 재미있다, why 재미 instead the [cvc] [v] pattern?

[James]

That's how their syllables are. I know that doesn't explain much. I mean take for example the word 'banana'. We divide it this way: ba·na·na. I guess you could say b·an·a·n·a but that's not the correct syllabication, is it? Also some words are attached to other words 'as is.' If you force the resulting phrase into a CVCV pattern, the word would be unrecognizable/different. Example:
말 = horse
말 + 이 (topic marker) = 말이
마리 = (number of animals)
In short, that's how it's spelled.

[austinfd]

I would add something to the rule about syllables being [CV], [CVC], or sometimes [CVCC]... there isn't any sinlge syllable that is [CVCV]. Impossible,... just try to type one.

저기...사자....바지

or 재미있다, why 재미 instead the [cvc] [v] pattern?

The spelling is impossible. 재미ㅣㅆ다 ..as you are aksing about doesn't work...yes, it is a vowel SOUND that directly follows after "재미" but it must be spelled with a consonant. so "ㅇ" in the initial position is "silent."

The rule means that syllables MUST begin with a consonant, followed by a vowel (and maybe another consonant) Some even have two consonants at the end, 얇다 (thin) ...~잖아요 (verb ending to give a reason)

There are slightly different pronunciations as well.
마리 is different than 말이 (but it's hard to show in romanization!) ^^

Does that make sense?

[James]

There are slightly different pronunciations as well.
마리 is different than 말이 (but it's hard to show in romanization!) ^^

Pronunciation or stress? Could you provide a sound file?

[austinfd]

There are slightly different pronunciations as well.
마리 is different than 말이 (but it's hard to show in romanization!) ^^

Pronunciation or stress? Could you provide a sound file?

He he... I'm not sure that I'm the best person to do that.. let's get a native speaker to weigh in.. That example may not be the best... I was just using it from the OP. I'd even cede the pronunciation point..(i'm not native!) In natural speech, the difference for those may not be all that noticeable, but you would hear it if 설 was breaking down the word on a podcast!

[manyakumi]

Actually, there is no difference to pronounce in between 말이 and 마리.

But when you write those words, you must distinguish them clearly.
It's because 말 is not just a syllable but is a word.

For example in your language,

"I can can a can."
It's little bit funny, but you could read and understand on seeing these words but,

"Ican canacan."
If you hear this sentence, you could understand what it means,
but hardly recognize it when you would see it on the writing at first.

Does it make sense?

[terepalo]

Thanks for the input guys,

So as I understand it it depends on the words, and if written different ways it could mean different things, just like in the example with “horse”.

Then I have another question if you don’t mind, this all started with me trying to practice writing under dictation, just to be able to recognize sounds in a speech and write it properly even if I don’t understand what’s said, I’ll try to illustrate it with my id in the forum “terepalo” it’s obviously not a word but, how would a Korean write it and why, I would go for “te·re·pa·lo” instead of “ter·e·pa·lo” but not for any special reason, that’s my point, is there any rule that leads you to choose one over the other?

[manyakumi]

There is a korean guy who never knows english words but only alphabet.
If you tell him "I know that lady" and then let him write it.
He might write as...

"Ai nou thet leidi"

It's a matter of the perception and recognition.
You are able to hear as much as you know.

On the other side,
We speak differently when the listener seems not recognize the words that we would try to say.
Especially on saying the name of a place, we often say both different ways.

한라산 must be pronounced as "Hallasan"
but when the listener does not know the name, we might say as "Han-Ra-San"

Because Korean is a syllabic character.
You must think as korean ways if you'd like to learn it.

[austinfd]

Thanks for the input guys,

So as I understand it it depends on the words, and if written different ways it could mean different things, just like in the example with “horse”.

Then I have another question if you don’t mind, this all started with me trying to practice writing under dictation, just to be able to recognize sounds in a speech and write it properly even if I don’t understand what’s said, I’ll try to illustrate it with my id in the forum “terepalo” it’s obviously not a word but, how would a Korean write it and why, I would go for “te·re·pa·lo” instead of “ter·e·pa·lo” but not for any special reason, that’s my point, is there any rule that leads you to choose one over the other?

Well it sort of depends on how you pronounce it! As, an American, I might say it differently than another English speaker, and different still than a European! My first shot would be:

테라포로 (I really don't like romanized Korean, so I won't even try!)


But.... it really depends on how you say it.

In English, the same string of letters can often have a few different pronunciations: potato, tomato, read are some common examples. But letters don't even reliably sound the same in similar words: comb, bomb, tomb... Where asin Korean, there is only one way to pronounce the letters..and it is remarkably consistent with only a few rules and exceptions.

I think practice writing in dictation is great practice. Since your profile says you are in Spain, can I assume that you speak Spanish? Spanish has a very uncomplicated orthography. Things are generally written exactly as they sound. Vowels are much simpler. In Korean, the reading is easy, but the writing can be tricky, as there are some silent consonants, and sometimes words will sound similar but have very different spellings!

I would suggest that you do that exercise with words you know to start. Blindly spelling things may cement some bad habits!

Keep up the good work!

[javiskefka]

There is a korean guy who never knows english words but only alphabet.
If you tell him "I know that lady" and then let him write it.
He might write as...

"Ai nou thet leidi"

It's a matter of the perception and recognition.
You are able to hear as much as you know.

Here is some interesting research on that issue: http://english-korean.com/projects/kaeps/index.html. It has to do with Koreans transferring the phonological rules from their first language to another language, English. It's what gives rise to an accent when a person speaks a foreign language.

[steved]

Actually, there is no difference to pronounce in between 말이 and 마리.

I think that the words said by themselves don't really sound different but when you put them into a sentence then 말이 is drawn out a little bit and 마리 has a little more speed: 멋이 있는 말이 두 마리가 있다. What do you think?

As I have said elsewhere, I am still working on hearing the difference between 눈 and 눈 but I think I can hear this one.

[javiskefka]

Maybe the difference is just particular to the words chosen, in that 말 has a long vowel 마리 has a short one. Do you hear a difference in the following?

저는 미국에 가 본 적이 없어요.
반지를 어더서 넣었지... 아, 저기예요.

Edit: It turn out that if you look in a 국어 사전, the 말 that means speech has the long vowel, while 마리 has the short vowel. The word for horse does not have the long vowel. Either way, it seems like an unfortunate example to illustrate the point in question, though. I have heard that in practice, these two vowels are not differentiated, in particular in the Seoul dialect, and by younger people, so manyak was also correct in saying that there is no difference.

[austinfd]

I think that the words said by themselves don't really sound different but when you put them into a sentence then 말이 is drawn out a little bit and 마리 has a little more speed: 멋이 있는 말이 두 마리가 있다. What do you think?

As I have said elsewhere, I am still working on hearing the difference between 눈 and 눈 but I think I can hear this one.

I'd agree to that! This is a deeper linguistic feature. Of course hearing those sentences in context there is no mis-understanding ....if you know the meaning! That fact alone might sort of *trick* your brain into hearing a sound difference just to help categorize it.

*NOTE: the above is TOTALLY a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised..our brains do some nifty things to organize language. I really wish I could recall all my linguistics classes!

Maybe the difference is just particular to the words chosen, in that 말 has a long vowel 마리 has a short one. Do you hear a difference in the following?

저는 미국에 가 본 적이 없어요.
반지를 어더서 넣었지... 아, 저기예요.

Yes... I do seem to pick up a slight difference between ...적이 / 저기 However, I'm tempted to think that it is because of the surrounding sounds. 적이 is preceded by ㄴ ...and 저기 is preceded by 아....there also appears to be a slight emphasis difference. Anyway, it is all affected by the context in the sentences.

The OP was asking about rules for writing based on the sounds they were listening to. OP, is your question answered?


steved.... 맛있는 말고기 먹은 적이 있어요?

[terepalo]

you all are really great, thanks for all the help and extra info,

It's a matter of the perception and recognition.
You are able to hear as much as you know.

manyakumi I think you hit the spot with that.

Austin you were right, spanish is my native languaje and orthography and pronuntiation are simple in comparison and sound completely different than korean but then again that's one of the reasons why I find the korean language so interesting. I'll follow your advice and will try to find more basic speeches to practice writing in dictation by now, and work harder to widen my vocabulary.

Question answered for sure, guys thank you for all the help.